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Mighty Middle
NDP Leader Andrea Horwath Accused Of "Unwanted Physical Contact & Molestation"

Seems that the Doug Ford Ontario Government has decided to take a page DIRECTLY from their federal cousins and use it on the NDP.

PC MPP Donna Skelly has accuses NDP Leader Andrea Horwath of unwanted physical contact and molestation in the legislature yesterday. Horwath is shaking her head as Skelly outlines her point of order .

https://twitter.com/MariekeWalsh/status/1052585347954163715

Which is the EXACT same language the federal Conservatives used against Justin Trudeau for "Elbowgate"

Skelly?stood up during question period Wednesday and laid out her complaint before asking House Speaker Ted Arnott to determine whether Horwath?breached?privilege.

Speaking with reporters afterward, the MPP said she was speaking with some colleagues when Horwath?crossed the floor "yelling, screaming and pushed me."

She added there is no photo or?video evidence, but said plenty of people witnesses the incident and the clerk escorting the NDP?leader back to her chair.

Skelly said she was not physically harmed and is not intimidated by Horwath, but added she believes no one should feel threatened at work.

"I think (Horwath)?needs to probably consider some anger management. She's clearly an angry woman when you see her across the hall."

Horwath?laughed when reporters asked her about?Skellys?accusation and said she was never escorted away by the clerk.

"I am absolutely saying that this is not true, this is not what happened," said?Horwath.?"I simply tapped the woman on the shoulder."

She refused to answer when reporters asked how hard she tapped her, instead describing the government's focus on the incident as "hyper-partisan nastiness" and a diversion.

As for?Skelly's?advice of seeking?anger management help,?Horwath?had a suggestion of her own.

"I think she needs to look in the mirror."

The??NDP?says the incident was sparked by?PC?MPPs?who were intentionally blocking a legislature camera that was recording?Horwath?speaking.

Energy?Minister Greg Rickford?said he witnessed Horwath?storming over?confrontation with a "red face" and made contact with Skelly's shoulder in a manner he would consider a push.

He added politics can get heated, but?members aren't supposed to touch each other.

"Tempers flare, people make accusations … but there's got to be a bright line ... it's not acceptable to make a member feel physical intimidation is part of how we conduct ourselves."

In response to Skelly, opposition house leader Gilles Bisson?called the alleged attempts to block the camera "absolutely inappropriate, disrespectful and beneath the dignity of this house.

"This point of order has no merits, so let's move on to the important issues that are facing Ontario families," he added.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/skelly-horwath-push-tap-legislat...

?

Mighty Middle

Doug Ford is really playing dirty

Angry Andrea "accosted" me: PC MPP Skelly

A PC MPP says she was pushed and screamed at by NDP Leader Andrea Horwath Tuesday in the Ontario Legislature.

The NDP downplayed the interaction, claiming the PCs themselves had acted badly by deliberately blocking an Ontario Parliament Network camera that was broadcasting Horwath’s speech.

The unusual incident came to light Wednesday when PC MPP Donna Skelly stood up in the Ontario Legislature to ask Speaker Ted Arnott to find a prima facie case for breach of privilege.

“Regarding the incident in question, at the conclusion of debate (Tuesday,) during the division bells yesterday, the member from Hamilton Centre crossed the chamber and initiated unwanted and intentional physical contact with me,” Skelly said.

Horwath later told reporters that the allegation against her is untrue.

“This is not what happened,” Horwath said.

“I wanted to talk to her about something, walked over, tapped her on the shoulder and she went ballistic. You can ask her why she decided to make this into a hyper-partisan angry affair. It was simply me going over to talk to her.”

NDP House Leader Gilles Bisson said Skelly’s point of order has no merit.

“The antics displayed by the government members yesterday in trying to block the cameras in the chamber from televising the speech from my leader on a very important health care issue facing Bramptonians were absolutely inappropriate, disrespectful and beneath the dignity of this House,” Bisson said.

Skelly said she was sitting in Finance Minister Vic Fedeli’s chair having a discussion with a PC cabinet minister when a furious Horwath walked across the floor, pushed her shoulder to get her attention and began screaming “You disgust me.

“I stood up and said, ‘Don’t touch me, get your hands off me,’” Skelly said.

“We had an exchange and then the clerk stepped in and told her to get back in her seat.”

Horwath’s face was red and she was clearly upset, but while she was aggressive in tone she did not hurt her, Skelly said.

There were many witnesses to the incident, and Horwath hasn’t denied touching her, Skelly said.

“My biggest issue in raising this is had a man done that this would have been a big deal,” she said.

“I’m not intimidated by Andrea Horwath but that conduct is so unbecoming of anyone, let alone the leader of a party, the Leader of the Opposition… She should apologize and she should control her temper.”

Skelly questioned the workplace culture of the Ontario NDP, noting two other NDP MPPs are the subject of unresolved union grievances and human rights complaints by their staff.

“No one should feel that they can be attacked where they work, in a workplace, especially in the legislature and that’s why I raised it,” she said. “She accosted me, and no one should put their hands on anyone else in the legislature.”

https://www.thewhig.com/news/provincial/angry-andrea-accosted-me-pc-mpp-...

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Does TVO do continuous coverage of sittings of the legislature?? If so, whatever happened should be on camera, especially if Skelly was speaking at the time.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

"Molestation" seems like an odd choice of word for being either tapped or pushed.

Pondering

Skelly is saying "pushed" but she only tapped?her shoulder. That isn't pushing. It's ridiculous and the motive is clear:

“My biggest issue in raising this is had a man done that this would have been a big deal,” she said.

I agree with Horwath. The woman disgusts me.? Men do not get accused of harassment?for tapping a woman on the shoulder.?

Mighty Middle

Make no mistake this is a calculated move by Ford. They want to immunize and neutralize Andrea Horwath as much as possible. By making this faux issue a real issue, everytime Andrea brings up an issue or opposes the Government, Ford will just dismiss her as "Angry Andrea" (like Trump calls Hillary Clinton "Crooked Hillary") and tell her to take anger management classes.

This was all planned by Ford and company, and he is playing brass knuckle politics. Using techniques he saw first-hand in Chicago, when he was working in the USA.

UPDATE: Speaker clears Horwath of Tory MPP's pushing allegation

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/skelly-horwath-push-tap-ontario-...

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Make no mistake this is a calculated move by Ford. They want to immunize and neutralize Andrea Horwath as much as possible. By making this faux issue a real issue, everytime Andrea brings up an issue or opposes the Government, Ford will just dismiss her as "Angry Andrea" (like Trump calls Hillary Clinton "Crooked Hillary") and tell her to take anger management classes.

This was all planned by Ford and company, and he is playing brass knuckle politics. Using techniques he saw first-hand in Chicago, when he was working in the USA.

UPDATE: Speaker clears Horwath of Tory MPP's pushing allegation

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/skelly-horwath-push-tap-ontario-...

So...does that put the "Angry Andrea" thing to rest?

Paladin1

Pondering wrote:

Skelly is saying "pushed" but she only tapped?her shoulder. That isn't pushing. It's ridiculous and the motive is clear:

?

If you "tapped" a police officer on the shoulder you could be charged for assaulting a police officer. ?Likewise if I tapped you on the shoulder, especially after angrily approaching you, you could charge me with assault.

In today's atmosphere of unwanted touching being recognized and called out it's interesting to see people still justifying it or at the very least brushing it off. Especially when politics are involved.?

Would you or many here defend Ford if he tapped Mrs Horwath on the shoulder? I highly doubt it. ?

Conversely if Mrs Skelly felt assaulted by the action and wanted something done ?she should go to the police

quizzical

piss off Paladin. your words are nothing more than scapegoating the PC's?bad behaviours.

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

So...does that put the "Angry Andrea" thing to rest?

Nope even though the speaker cleared her, Ford's MPPs are taunting her in the legislature by heckling "Angry Andrea" just like in the USA when Conservatives labelled Michelle Obama an Angry Black Woman with her "Proud of my country" remark.

Unionist

quizzical wrote:

piss off Paladin. your words are nothing more than scapegoating the PC's?bad behaviours.

Well said, quizzical. I have nothing to add.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

?

Ken Burch wrote:

?

Mighty Middle wrote:

?

So...does that put the "Angry Andrea" thing to rest?

Nope even though the speaker cleared her, Ford's MPPs are taunting her in the legislature by heckling "Angry Andrea" just like in the USA when Conservatives labelled Michelle Obama an Angry Black Woman with her "Proud of my country" remark.

Ken Burch wrote:

Michelle Obama's husband won two U.S. presidential elections with majority vote support after she said that, and after the GOP threw every possible racial and religious, and eligibility-for-the-office slur at him.

Justin won a majority after Elbowgate.

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

Justin won a majority after Elbowgate.

Justin Majority came before Elbowgate

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Justin won a majority after Elbowgate.

Justin Majority came before Elbowgate

I stand corrected. ?

Paladin1

quizzical wrote:

piss off Paladin. your words are nothing more than scapegoating the PC's?bad behaviours.

You're suggesting you blocking a tv camera is justification for me to storm up to you and initiate unwanted body contact, even if it's "just" a tap?

And if Ford would have did that to Horwath then you wouldn't have decried his touching her?

Ya right. Like I said it always seems to be different when it's someone we know or support in one way or another. You're the one scapegoating bad behavior.

I'm quite sure the Conservatives were being assholes and blocking the camera on purpose like children.

Pondering

Paladin1 wrote:

If you "tapped" a police officer on the shoulder you could be charged for assaulting a police officer. ?Likewise if I tapped you on the shoulder, especially after angrily approaching you, you could charge me with assault.

...Would you or many here defend Ford if he tapped Mrs Horwath on the shoulder? I highly doubt it. ?

If it really was just a tap on the shoulder I don't believe a police officer could successfully define that as assault. Yes I would defend Ford if he tapped a woman on the shoulder to get her attention and she called it assault. That like calling false rape. It does untold damage to actual victims providing ammunition to those who would undermine all accusations.?

In fact the woman said something to the effect that she wasn't intimitated but?she was objecting because if a man did he would be in trouble but that isn't true. I'm not seeing cases of men being accused because they tapped a woman on the shoulder. More like tapped her on the ass or made lewd comments.?

It's the same situation as the guy who made a complaint against Moore. He said he didn't feel intimidated or taken?in any way he just thought it was automatically inappropriate because she was an MP and if she were a man and he were a woman she would be in trouble. But that isn't true at all especially once the entire story came out. It was entirely consensual therefore the sexes of the individuals are immaterial.?

It's very annoying to read of men saying they won't meet with women alone anymore or they are afraid to touch women. Just don't touch women in a manner that you would not touch men. A tap on the shoulder is fine. That is not what women have been complaining of.?

PS in fact I am very steamed at these people making false accusations against women and then claiming?that is what women are doing when they make accusations against men.?

Mighty Middle

Then BC Premier Christy Clark "touches" then NDP Leader John Horgan during a live debate, and Horgan turns to Clark and says "Don't touch me"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5hx2RjzPTQ

Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Skelly is saying "pushed" but she only tapped?her shoulder. That isn't pushing. It's ridiculous and the motive is clear:

?

If you "tapped" a police officer on the shoulder you could be charged for assaulting a police officer. ?Likewise if I tapped you on the shoulder, especially after angrily approaching you, you could charge me with assault.

In today's atmosphere of unwanted touching being recognized and called out it's interesting to see people still justifying it or at the very least brushing it off. Especially when politics are involved.?

Would you or many here defend Ford if he tapped Mrs Horwath on the shoulder? I highly doubt it. ?

Conversely if Mrs Skelly felt assaulted by the action and wanted something done ?she should go to the police

VERY important distinctions between being charged, found guilty, and actually being guilty missing here.

On reflection Quizzical's response was correct as I am sure you are aware of all this.

Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 wrote:
quizzical wrote:

piss off Paladin. your words are nothing more than scapegoating the PC's?bad behaviours.

You're suggesting you blocking a tv camera is justification for me to storm up to you and initiate unwanted body contact, even if it's "just" a tap? And if Ford would have did that to Horwath then you wouldn't have decried his touching her? Ya right. Like I said it always seems to be different when it's someone we know or support in one way or another. You're the one scapegoating bad behavior. I'm quite sure the Conservatives were being assholes and blocking the camera on purpose like children.

So you think tapping somone on the shoulder to get their attention is assault or is this line of argument just for shits and giggles?

Sean in Ottawa

Mighty Middle wrote:

Then BC Premier Christy Clark "touches" then NDP Leader John Horgan during a live debate, and Horgan turns to Clark and says "Don't touch me"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5hx2RjzPTQ

And Horgan had a right to say that. Does not mean that Clark assaulted him. Would mean the next touch could be an assault. Come on this is not that hard to understand.

There is nothing saying that you can only say "don't touch me" after you were assaulted.

?

Cody87

Pondering wrote:

It's very annoying to read of men saying they won't meet with women alone anymore or they are afraid to touch women.

For the part about touching women, men should be afraid to touch women, if only out of concern for the woman's sense of security/safety. Now, in case Magoo sees this, context is a bit important here (maybe you need to get someone's attention at a loud rock concert because she dropped something...a touch on the shoulder is fine then), and obviously there is nothing wrong with a handshake or some other expected or usual physical contact (eg. if you are helping someone over an obstacle at an event like Tough Mudder), but in 98% of situations you don't need to make physical contact to get someone's attention or "just because". In the direction of a man to a woman, doing so unnecessarily is clearly done either to physically intimidate or suggest romantic interest, and the latter is not appropriate in most settings. The former is never appropriate.

But, the first bit of your comment is I think is a predictable response and something that you're going to see more of, not less. The "Mike Pence rule" is very, very hard to argue against from a male perspective (which is a common perspective among men and also among some women, as we saw recently with Kavanaugh). I don't know what can be done about it though, because I don't think that genie is going back in the bottle.

cco

Cody87 wrote:

But, the first bit of your comment is I think is a predictable response and something that you're going to see more of, not less. The "Mike Pence rule" is very, very hard to argue against from a male perspective (which is a common perspective among men and also among some women, as we saw recently with Kavanaugh). I don't know what can be done about it though, because I don't think that genie is going back in the bottle.

I'm male. Implementing the "Pence rule" (formerly the "Billy Graham rule") is saying one of two things: Either I know I can't be trusted not to rape any woman I'm alone with, or women, as a gender, can't be trusted not to falsely accuse me of rape. Both are, to say the least, problematic. If you don't see how, imagine a white businessman who had a rule he'd never meet alone with First Nations people because an accusation of saying something racist would destroy his career.

I don't think the women who started #MeToo intended it to lead to Saudi-style gender segregation.

Sean in Ottawa

The Pence rule is ridiculous and sexist. If Pence wanted to exclude any one-on-one meetings with all genders it would be up to him but to do so (would make his job impossible). But to do so only with women while still having such meetings to conduct business with men is enough to exclude him from being worthy to hold any public position. Just think what would happen if he decided to make this about any others-- say any other group for example? (It is possible that this does not come up for him.)

The afraid to touch thing is also not something that should be gendered only. Intentional touch should normally be consential with few exemptions between and among all people.

This whole afraid thing is due to men falsely claiming that consent is a difficult thing to obtain. They cannot figure out when it is appropriate to ask so they ought to be able to ignore the need for it or whine that this means that touching is impossible. Bullshit on all counts.

For some reason a lot of men imagine that touching starts from nothing to the extremely personal. You don't start with some awkward requirement for consent to touch intimately from zero because that is not the way it works. Consent for each escalation is much more natural to ask for and hold back if it is not given. If the leap seems too far to ask for it is becuase it is too far. We hear ourselves. One reason why men may be disturbed by the need for consent is becuase by verbalizing it, it becomes obvious that what they are asking for is inappropriate. Seeking consent is not awkward where the action is not inappropriate. Asking and getting a few nos might help clarify any grey areas. Asking where inappropriate is of course harassment in itself. Hey it is 2018 -- why is this hard?

ETA: the irony is that I live in Ontario -- I see the same men who whine about the difficulty of getting consent are the ones against it being taught in schools. While I think that it should not be difficult -- clearly there seems to be the need for this to be part of the curriculum. In Ontario it was until the Conservatives here took it out.

Cody87

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

ETA: the irony is that I live in Ontario -- I see the same men who whine about the difficulty of getting consent are the ones against it being taught in schools. While I think that it should not be difficult -- clearly there seems to be the need for this to be part of the curriculum. In Ontario it was until the Conservatives here took it out.

The irony is that Patrick Brown probably would have left the curriculum alone.

WWWTT

Andrea tapped another woman on the shoulder. Whippy shit.?

The odd thing about this is that the conservatives usually project themselves as angry about something to whip voters into their wedge issues.?

Sounds like a fuck up on the conservatives part.?

Im thinking Ford and?the Ontario pc are worried about the ONDP. This was a real dumb stunt on their part. They have a majority and they’re trying to pull off minor stuff like this????

Pondering

Thank you cco and Sean. You both said it better than I could.?

quizzical

Andrea needs to take the "angry Andrea" alliteration meme and own it.

imv the whole thing was a set up to label her.

now she needs to say fkn right i'm angry and pick the top 3 things of why she has right to be? angry and let people know they should be too.

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

Andrea needs to take the "angry Andrea" alliteration meme and own it.

imv the whole thing was a set up to label her.

now she needs to say fkn right i'm angry and pick the top 3 things of why she has right to be? angry and let people know they should be too.

Yes very good point - no risk of her turning into an angry Tom...

I think it is also good for her to demand -- "why are you not angry about...." When lobbed across the legislature it can accuse the government of being uncaring. Which. They. Are.

?

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

quizzical wrote:

Andrea needs to take the "angry Andrea" alliteration meme and own it.

imv the whole thing was a set up to label her.

now she needs to say fkn right i'm angry and pick the top 3 things of why she has right to be? angry and let people know they should be too.

Yes very good point - no risk of her turning into an angry Tom...

I think it is also good for her to demand -- "why are you not angry about...." When lobbed across the legislature it can accuse the government of being uncaring. Which. They. Are.

Both excellent points. Not to mention if anyone is perpetually angry it's Ford not Horwath.?